Photo by Mariia Zakatiura on Unsplash
Here’s your weekly helping of The Value Exchange podcast
We are delighted to welcome this week’s special guest, Jake Richings. Jake first became part of our network about 18 months ago, at the height of our Young Leaders project. He’s super inspiring. Jake works with charities, schools, businesses and most importantly young people. He is looking to help young people feel empowered to give things a go, learn from trying and build skills, experience and a network that will help them on a journey of discovery to find what might be the right work for them. He is also looking to help businesses to improve their engagement with young people.
We discuss many things including the seemingly contradictory gap between young people struggling to find work and businesses not able to find the young people they need, the importance of creating space to experiment with your work and skills, feeling empowered to make time for reflection and taking control of your own work journey plus reflections on Value Exchange can help you achieve all this.
For more information on Jake visit:
Website – https://www.jakerichings.com/
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-richings/
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Youtube video – Episode 5 – Jake Richings – Young people need to experiment with work (click to watch)
Podcast – Episode 5 – Jake Richings – Young people need to experiment with work (click to listen)
Transcript – scroll to see text below
TRANSCRIPT – Episode 5 – Conversation with Jake Richings – Young people need to experiment with work
00:00:00:15 – 00:00:30:21
Rob Pye
This is Rob and Annabelle. We’re here again talking about value exchange. And we’ve got special guests here this morning. Jake, quick introductions for people who don’t know me or Annabelle. I’m Rob. I have worked with Annabelle for heaven knows how long now since probably 24 years ago, in EY days. I’ve got three kids who are kind of Jake’s age, maybe a little younger and I live in Surrey.
00:00:30:21 – 00:00:49:14
Rob Pye
And I’ve kind of been on this journey of how individuals and organizations might work with one another to look at improving communities and improving the planet and helping with individual well-being of all shapes, sizes, ages, and that’s kind of what drives me and gets me out of bed. Annabelle…
00:00:49:16 – 00:01:16:24
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah, Hi, I’m Annabelle, but I’m still based in West Sussex. I have a different backdrop. Today is first day of half term, two kids, 14, 17, a big sign on the door saying “Do not disturb”. Hopefully that will work. I can’t account for dogs barking, but my thing is all about people, and Jake and I met, well, I don’t know, 18 months ago, something like that.
00:01:16:24 – 00:01:22:24
Annabelle Lambert
That’s me. I’m going to stop there.
00:01:23:03 – 00:01:55:09
Rob Pye
Thanks. So special guest is Jake. Before you do introductions, Jake, I’m just going to introduce, I’m just going to talk about you just for a little bit. So. So, we’ve had a scheme running which we started just before the pandemic, which Annabelle can talk about better than I was called young leaders. And that was about heartfelt belief that we had that the future is about young people and we’ve been doing this 20, 20 odd years and not getting any younger.
00:01:55:22 – 00:02:22:01
Rob Pye
Funnily enough, although in our brains we’re younger in our bodies then I’m a little bit older. We started recruiting and offering young people work without a particular job to move into, and with some help from a government grant, we recruited 65 young people over the pandemic and lots of volunteers, and a lot of it was about young people supporting young people.
00:02:22:01 – 00:02:49:04
Rob Pye
And Jake has come into Ethos. It’s feels like forever ago, but ages ago, to help support Ethos, but particularly to help support young people, which really fits in with his mission. So we’re very delighted to have Jake here on the show this morning. And Jake, that’s the sort of a little bit of a run in. And you just want to tell us about what you do, why you do it, how you do it.
00:02:49:23 – 00:03:15:18
Jake Richings
Yeah, Fantastic. Cheers Rob. So my name is Jake Richings. I’ve just started calling myself an entrepreneur. Now I’m best known for school speaking about finding careers that you love and using Tik Tok to boost your employability. Aside from that, I’m helping early careers and schools use Tik Tok as one of many tools to engage young people. I’m also helping young people start their own businesses around Gloucestershire and Wiltshire where I’m based and many other pursuits alongside that in employability. But the reason I love doing this is because of the challenges I had when I first started work and knowing where I am now, I wish I’d have had more support back then.
00:03:32:27 – 00:04:06:08
Annabelle Lambert
I love the way you feel like you’re like 104, but you’ve just had the wherewithal very early in your career to go, actually, that was really quite tough. I think, you know, I can help, which is just excellent. Excellent. Thank you for joining us. Yesterday you posted on LinkedIn. I do read what you post, which is good of me 😉 and you posted something about supply and demand and why are there so many young people really struggling to get on the work ladder?
00:04:06:13 – 00:04:17:00
Annabelle Lambert
And actually, you know, every minute of the day, we’re there’s so many jobs, so many vacancies that need to be filled. I wonder whether we could talk about that a bit and your thoughts on that.
00:04:17:08 – 00:04:32:11
Jake Richings
Yeah, absolutely. So I’m fortunate to be on kind of both sides of the coin. I work with a lot of young people getting ready for their first steps into employment, getting their first jobs. But I also get to work with a lot of early careers teams and how they create their work experience offering and how they recruit.
00:04:32:22 – 00:04:53:16
Jake Richings
And I’m seeing both of them have challenges that don’t seem to make sense for each other. So on one hand you’ve got young people who are telling me they’re applying for hundreds of jobs and not getting a response. Young people who are seemingly don’t have the confidence or the skills to get their first step on a ladder, and they’re fighting it really difficult to get that first job.
00:04:53:16 – 00:05:16:28
Jake Richings
And in the market, I’m seeing businesses that are struggling to recruit early talent. They’re saying they’re not getting the applications. They’re certainly not getting the skilled applications that they would expect. I’m not finding people that are work ready. And in my mind, I don’t understand how both of those can exist as problems, it seems like, what is the missing link here? Is it just that what young people and businesses expect of each other is wrong?
00:05:17:25 – 00:05:36:03
Jake Richings
That they maybe expect that to be more skills or young people expect to be developed more? So I’m really interested in this spot because like I say, I’m trying to help the young people get work and I’m also trying to help businesses get young people into work. So it just seems like a bit of an odd space and it seems like a lot of other people are spotting that as well.
00:05:36:23 – 00:06:03:23
Rob Pye
So it’s not known what you’re going to say. It’s a brilliant lead in before Annabelle does any more questions to a project that we did in construction a few years ago called SkillsPlanner. Now we, we, we invested £2 million plus with lots of employers and that to look at just that problem. You know approximately one in ten people in the UK are employed within the supply chain of construction.
00:06:04:08 – 00:06:34:03
Rob Pye
Construction have a massive skills gap. Exactly what you just said about, you know, expecting people with the right skills, doing the right applications. And yet, you know, hundreds of young people, we know this from our young leaders, you know, thousands of young people, you know, applying for hundreds of jobs each and there not being a match. And so the gap is, if anything, after Brexit, Brexit, breakfast, there is a Brexit.
00:06:34:07 – 00:06:36:10
Annabelle Lambert
If only it had been that simple.
00:06:37:19 – 00:07:21:15
Rob Pye
The gaps perhaps getting bigger. And one of the things about value exchange is we’ve been designing something for individuals, however old, to design their own work. And what we want to do is encourage employers to design roles that fit individuals and the talent. Yeah, the enormous talent that’s out there. So you’ve kind of got on the one hand, individuals designing their dream work, employers we would like and increasingly are having to redesign their work to fit individuals.
00:07:22:29 – 00:07:34:00
Rob Pye
That’s the dream that might be not in our lifetime, but that’s the mission that we’re on with value exchange. And I think we’ve got another question, Annabelle. I just wanted to make that SkillsPlanner point.
00:07:35:01 – 00:07:56:15
Annabelle Lambert
So I’m just I’m interested in Jake what you what you’ve come across in this challenge. You know, when you’re working on both sides, where do you think the gaps are? I mean, I feel we’ve talked to a number of organizations that help people who are really quite distanced. But I don’t think this is just about those people.
00:07:56:15 – 00:08:31:04
Annabelle Lambert
I think it’s just about young people generally trying to get into work. It’s a massive problem for them, is what I’m seeing. But when you talk to these wonderful organizations that help, you know, the most disadvantaged in society, try and get, you know, more skills, whatever it is that they’re doing. And, you know, they’ve interviewed young people and they all come back with the same thing, you know, seemingly the same things that, you know, you know, that they’re more we are more demanding of what an employer is and how they’re treated and what they’re doing and those sorts of things.
00:08:31:14 – 00:08:45:15
Annabelle Lambert
And this doesn’t you know, it’s not doesn’t seem to be getting across to the other side that this is you know, this is a new world that’s developing. And I feel a positive one because it’s looking after people better. But any thoughts Jake?.
00:08:45:29 – 00:09:05:13
Jake Richings
Yeah, I think there’s two main factors going on at the moment. There’s one which has been like a steady stagnation or especially with COVID, like a decline in the actual soft skills of young people think about, like confidence and leadership stuff that you don’t necessarily develop because of the curriculum, but often it’s a lot of the after school stuff.
00:09:05:26 – 00:09:25:27
Jake Richings
So, you know, playing in a sports team is a great way to build teamwork skills that you might not get in maths class. And I feel like those are things that are really valuable in any job, which is what more and more businesses are recruiting for. But the second thing is almost an increase, like you mentioned, in expectations of what a workplace should be and could offer for a young person.
00:09:26:11 – 00:09:46:19
Jake Richings
So a young person will go into an entry level role and expect progression, expect learning opportunities and expect them over quite a short period of time. And this has happened, you know, through no fault of young people’s own, but more and more that Gen Z are being raised in a world that is quick to turn around and what they want.
00:09:47:07 – 00:10:06:01
Jake Richings
So if I want next day to order a table, it will arrive next day. If I want a takeaway, it can arrive like tonight. Just go to my phone, you know, even if I want to go on a date, it’s not that good, but you just swipe right? But a career is very different to that. It’s not it’s not quick turnaround.
00:10:07:06 – 00:10:27:29
Jake Richings
And I think businesses of maybe been blindsided by this a bit, they’ve sort of expected that this generation more or less will want what the last generations did, and that’s not the case. So there definitely needs to be adaptation from both sides to say, okay, the first job I get, it’s not going to be perfect, but it’s going to help me get the skills to go on to the next one.
00:10:27:29 – 00:10:55:29
Jake Richings
And equally, from a business point of view, there has to be some leeway to say this young person might not be work ready. How can we support them, whether it’s directly through employment or apprenticeship or indirectly through the charities that support young people to be work ready? Because at the moment there’s just like a complete disconnect between what young people believe they should get as their first opportunity and what businesses are prepared to hire.
00:10:55:29 – 00:11:32:11
Rob Pye
So we have to get the value exchange in this series’ conversation. You know all about Ethos. So we have this thing called Value Exchange designed to capture and try and mold the work that people do according to what individuals want to do. I wonder if you could just share some of your Ethos experiences first hand in terms of your journey, which is a really inspiring one, and how to watch you grow and develop and the tik tok and the, you know, the entrepreneurship.
00:11:32:27 – 00:11:44:00
Rob Pye
So any reflections on Ethos and value exchange for you? What was the experience? How has it helped or hindered?
00:11:44:00 – 00:12:04:08
Jake Richings
Yeah, I’ll speak more broadly about value exchange to start and maybe share a little bit more of my journey, I suppose. So. I left school in 2015 for a year after leaving school. I was NEET, not in education, employment or training for large part because I didn’t know what job I wanted and no jobs looked interesting to me.
00:12:04:08 – 00:12:23:29
Jake Richings
I was one of these, you know, demanding Gen Z that really expected something quite high but didn’t have that much to offer and no job existed that I thought would be a good fit for me. After cutting my teeth in the likes of being a pot washer and being a waiter, that kind of stuff. I eventually got a career in sales and customer service.
00:12:24:27 – 00:12:48:07
Jake Richings
Again, that wasn’t the right fit, and I felt like I kept beating myself up for saying, This isn’t what I want to do, but I don’t know what it is. No job role exists I think I’d really want to do. And so as part of trying to work out, you know, what I’m passionate about, what I’d love to do, I just started trying so many different things that I have, like a little inkling not that I was like, I want to do that.
00:12:48:07 – 00:13:10:05
Jake Richings
It was more like, Yeah, I might want to be a teacher. Maybe I could volunteer at school, I might want to do app design, I could make an app And I just started making apps, designing board games, making video games, managing an e-sports team, all this stuff that I was like, Maybe that’s what I want to do. And as a result of that, not only did I learn loads of skills, but I started sharing this with friends.
00:13:10:27 – 00:13:34:22
Jake Richings
What I was doing, what was working, and they told me it was working for them, that it was really valuable. That then became speaking to youth charities to help young people, the unemployed, that then became school talks and university talks. And by sharing this stuff that I found really valuable that I enjoyed sharing, I almost carved out its own path where I could do something for work that I enjoyed.
00:13:35:01 – 00:13:55:08
Jake Richings
But there was no job role for it. There wasn’t someone out there hiring saying, We’d like someone to share their story, this and that. I just kind of made that path and that sort of led me down entrepreneurship and led me to connect with Ethos as well. So within Ethos, it’s a very similar thing where you join and you’re not given a bunch of work and said, go away and do that.
00:13:55:08 – 00:14:12:27
Jake Richings
This is your job role. It’s more so you look around and see what takes all your fancy or what you think you might like, and then you give it a go and then you reflect and say, Actually I did like doing that, or I didn’t like that part of it. And that’s what I found really valuable early in my career when I was trying to find my path.
00:14:13:08 – 00:14:32:19
Jake Richings
So only makes sense to me now that we should get more young people to do that in a similar way that, you know, graduate programs try to do, give people a buffet of stuff that they can try, but then allow them the reflection to say what parts that they like and where might those parts exist in other jobs, careers that you could create down the line.
00:14:34:01 – 00:15:04:19
Rob Pye
Interesting on our journey, 22 years, that value exchange has always been something we’ve used internally, you know, for social entrepreneurs, for people that, you know, like yourself want to discover their why and to experiment. But now we are turning it outside so anybody can, part of this series, you know, anybody, nothing to do with Ethos, whether you’re employed, whether you’re unemployed, whether you’ve got a label like NEET, you know, you’re young or old or whatever.
00:15:06:07 – 00:15:45:00
Rob Pye
And two things on what you just said, one about experimentation probably is a key one in that I absolutely agree that for young people you’ve just got to try stuff and to be able to give young people the ability to experiment, then everybody, you know, whatever age, but particularly young people that come to the table who haven’t done the job, who haven’t, you know, had the experience of maybe I need to give this time or turn up or, you know, just be present or, you know, try things out.
00:15:46:06 – 00:16:12:26
Rob Pye
And that is absolutely essential and not necessarily about I’m going to join an accountancy firm and I’ve got a buffet of 12 things they let me do. But you know your story which is very inspiring and your label now of entrepreneurship doesn’t necessarily matter the label, but being able to try anything. I want to do graphic design.
00:16:12:26 – 00:16:50:14
Rob Pye
I think I want to do finance. That sounds great. Oh, I hate finance. I love it. You know, whatever. Whatever is something that we did, I think we achieved really well on. That was my first sort of come back on that. The second one was this I was NEET bit and we dived into this a little bit with some a bit of DWP data science earlier in the week and they, they’ve, they’ve got some evidence about a program that’s delivered to NEET people having a positive impact on work.
00:16:50:14 – 00:17:22:17
Rob Pye
And, and it does and the program was a six week one with one year mentoring so it’s not an insignificant one but the net benefit on days employed in over a two year period that they did the study was less than just less than 10% more days worked and even for the most, on average, the median day’s work was less than half of the days that you could work.
00:17:22:17 – 00:17:48:14
Rob Pye
So in other words, 50% of people want to work full time, but so it is a bit of a stigmatization, but it’s also a tragedy that, however, a high functioning academic, you know, that actually so much talent is not being utilized. And we’re paying people to be unemployed rather than creating opportunities, you know, for them to work.
00:17:48:27 – 00:17:56:16
Rob Pye
I wonder, you know, and then I’ll pass back to Annabelle. Next question. Give her 10 minutes to prepare the next question.
00:17:56:16 – 00:17:57:16
Annabelle Lambert
So mean.
00:17:57:24 – 00:18:17:01
Rob Pye
How can we have ideas? So to help people do that experience thing when they’re spending all their time doing 100 applications to get into these jobs that they don’t maybe have the experience or qualifications.
00:18:17:11 – 00:18:18:19
Annabelle Lambert
Or even WANT you know.
00:18:19:23 – 00:18:20:02
Rob Pye
And then.
00:18:20:02 – 00:18:21:02
Annabelle Lambert
They join, there’s a lot that going on.
00:18:21:02 – 00:18:27:29
Rob Pye
How can we innovate around that problem? Do you have any thoughts on that?
00:18:28:08 – 00:18:50:14
Jake Richings
Yeah, there’s a couple of things I speak about a lot when I’m at school speaking. So, you know, Year 10s, Year 12s, we have whilst I was working full time, I didn’t know it, but I was developing this framework for How do you get started in any industry that you think you might be interested in? And I say I think because it’s a really small like you have an idea that, Oh yeah, I’d like to design a board game.
00:18:50:14 – 00:19:11:04
Jake Richings
It’s like, How can I do that? You don’t have to be certain. One of the things is about the people that you know, and it might sound really cliche, it’s like not what you know, it’s who you know. But more than anything, young people don’t have those connections with people that can give them opportunities to do the things that they think they might be interested in.
00:19:11:23 – 00:19:47:14
Jake Richings
It’s all very well and good if you’ve grown up with those connections, but many people just don’t have them. But these are still people you can connect with now, but you just need to start putting some feelers out there and having conversations with parents, neighbours, coaches, teachers about the things you kind of think you’d like to do because, you know, law of was it degrees of separation, Somebody know somebody that might know, someone that works at a local football club that might be able to get you in to do some work experience there or to give you a volunteering opportunity to do work that you think you might like.
00:19:48:17 – 00:20:06:21
Jake Richings
The second thing is about trying things that you think you might kind of like with no expectation that you will like them, right? I’ll give you a real world example. It was a bit loose, but I’ve always played table tennis. I’ve always been quite good at table tennis, and it was only this time last year that I thought, I wonder what tennis is like.
00:20:14:13 – 00:20:16:23
Jake Richings
So I didn’t want to spend loads of money on the kit.
So I ended up spending a couple of quid a week to get proper lessons with a group of people. And as a result, not only met a new group of people I didn’t know, but also developed some skills and became much fitter as a result. Now I can say I play tennis. In the corner there, that’s a piece of artwork. It’s facing the other way. I thought, what would it be like to paint?
00:20:42:19 – 00:21:06:02
Jake Richings
You know, I’ve never done a painting since I was at school, so I just got some materials to start doing that and then you bring out some creativity. Oh, I’m a creative person and I think we need to really be encouraging young people to try things without the expectation that that needs to be their passion or their why, but more so that by doing these things you learn maybe what you would or wouldn’t like to continue with.
00:21:06:26 – 00:21:07:19
Rob Pye
So I.
00:21:07:19 – 00:21:08:15
Annabelle Lambert
Feel that I have.
00:21:08:15 – 00:21:32:27
Rob Pye
A tennis to jujitsu story, don’t we all? Which is a recent one and it’s I think it involves getting rid of the bat. But my middle son who is a social he he’s moved back into a new NHS job. He was doing tennis you know, in the same way as you’ve just described there, in Ipswich with the NHS.
00:21:33:07 – 00:22:10:06
Rob Pye
He’s now in a West London NHS and the tennis, you know, again it was physical activity, but it was also social and it was fantastic. And he decided not to join a tennis club but actually has gone to a jujitsu club which is just like about as un-bat and ball as you can imagine. And so now he’s got a totally different group of people, a totally different sport, but it’s all of that same, you know, physical, social network engaging that you just described.
00:22:10:08 – 00:22:13:26
Rob Pye
So tennis to jujitsu. Sorry, Annabelle, I interrupted.
00:22:13:26 – 00:22:23:19
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah. No, no, I was just going to say from the other side and the reverse. And so so since, I told you, my son, apologies,.
00:22:23:19 – 00:22:25:18
Rob Pye
So we’ll bring him in. Come on.
00:22:25:18 – 00:22:34:01
Annabelle Lambert
He’s just peeping through the window outside. Go away.
00:22:34:13 – 00:22:37:02
Rob Pye
And that’s not going to be cut out at all.
00:22:37:02 – 00:22:56:04
Annabelle Lambert
Oh it is. I’m in charge of the Premier Pro now. I’m happy for that to be in the edit. You know, what I was saying was just that ability to just try stuff and sort of one of the stories I’ve heard it so many times, but I’m not sick of one of the stories from our young leaders.
00:22:56:12 – 00:23:18:11
Annabelle Lambert
Charlotte hello. Wherever you are in South America. But some was as she came to us and she’d had a really bad experience in sales, you know, effectively, she’d been in some call centre making calls all day. Not a great experience for her. And she came to us and she said, I don’t want to do sales. This is not my thing.
00:23:18:23 – 00:23:39:27
Annabelle Lambert
And by the end of six months of just finding herself, getting involved in all sorts of I mean, we really did chuck her massively in at the deep end and go just get on with some stuff. I mean, you know, Sarah and Charlotte, our very first Young Leaders were really you know, they were subjected to some quite hairy challenges, which they just met brilliantly.
00:23:40:04 – 00:24:05:23
Annabelle Lambert
And and but but by the end of her six months, she was like, I really love people and I really love talking to people and I really love developing business and I really love and she just found her groove and she was very much in that space with business development. So I just, you know, I think you’re also sort of taking on board that bad experience and how it can be turned around by just creating a bit space really to try something else.
00:24:05:29 – 00:24:28:07
Annabelle Lambert
And I think I feel I want to say that I feel we talk about young people because that’s your thing Jake. But also I feel anybody, you know, feel old people. I mean, there’s this huge problem with over fifties at the moment. You know, this is now the cohort that we’re focused on. If we’re the DWP in this swings and roundabouts that we do always, young people, old people, young people, old people, like that, which is, you know, fine.
00:24:29:01 – 00:24:50:22
Annabelle Lambert
But I feel, you know, I’m pleased that it feels like there’s a protest from 50 plus people and that actually I don’t want to do that work anymore. I want to do something that’s, you know something more meaningful to me? And so, you know, the same you know, I recommend the same sort of approach. It’s like, well, let’s try some stuff.
00:24:50:22 – 00:24:56:00
Annabelle Lambert
Let’s create some work that’s meaningful to people because there’s a lot of meaningful work that needs to go on.
00:24:56:20 – 00:25:29:19
Rob Pye
Not just just to sort of build on. You know, Jake was talking about social networks for young people. They’re hugely important. And also the Gen Z expectation, young people expectation. But I want to link those things to a story. Annabelle and I have, it’s 24 years old now where we started Ethos. Mark one. which is called C-People: Community, Connected People, Chocolate Chocolate people.
00:25:30:26 – 00:26:06:22
Rob Pye
But we went to California to meet amongst other people to meet a guy called Ethienne Wenger and we mentioned it before because it’s kind of a bit of a replay of history there. And he was one of the guys who first invented the term Communities of Practice and wrote a very academic book about how people like people like themselves and can, you know, get groups of them together to form social networks that are outside of their formal hierarchy.
00:26:06:22 – 00:26:37:21
Rob Pye
And they practice as in “formally practice”, you know, doing things. And he studied groups of people who were insurance claims processors. And this is sort of a group that you would not maybe naturally think of as the most stimulated at work kind of people, but it was how do they manage to have purpose and passion and focus and all of those things whilst being an insurance claim processor.
00:26:37:21 – 00:27:11:01
Rob Pye
So long story short it is because of the communities of practice, it’s because of the deep rich social networks that they have. So it’s not just about the job you’re doing. It’s about all of the things that come with it and particularly the people and permission and context that you kind of get from that. And so again, message to young people is that it doesn’t need to be that the job itself is providing everything that you want.
00:27:11:11 – 00:27:43:02
Rob Pye
It can just be the context that the job allows you to build, like you said, stepping stone. But you know, another way is the sort of social networks, a great opportunity. Right, iIt’s 27 minutes. So final thoughts from Jake then? Final thoughts from Annabelle and then I’m going to bring it to a close. We’re going to cut it into something slightly shorter, but not that much, Jake, any anything else you want?
00:27:44:05 – 00:28:16:28
Jake Richings
Final thoughts. I think ultimately one of the things I’m seeing in both early careers and also in young people is that we really need to focus on engagement with young people. We can’t expect to force the tools and the how to on them and expect them to run with it. In the same way that you mentioned, the DWP helping people get a little bit more work, but maybe not solving the issue if a young person or an old person, if a person is engaged with their own development, their own career, they’re going to go so much further than if they’re expecting someone to hold the hand and walk with them through it.
00:28:17:15 – 00:28:28:15
Jake Richings
So whenever we’re creating content, creating guides, creating jobs or roles, we need to think about engaging the people that are actually going to do them because it’s going to be so much better in the long term.
00:28:29:14 – 00:28:33:00
Rob Pye
Thank you very much. So much wisdom, so, so, so.
00:28:33:07 – 00:28:59:17
Annabelle Lambert
Well, I’m just thinking then enter stage right value exchange is what I’m feeling now. You’ve said that, I feel that point is, you know, people need to be happy. And back to permission which we talked about a while ago, that is just, you know, feel comfortable with being at the center of what it is that they are and how they are engaging.
00:28:59:17 – 00:29:03:22
Annabelle Lambert
I think that’s really insightful. Thank you for that.
00:29:04:17 – 00:29:11:25
Rob Pye
Thank you very much. Until the next time, this is the value exchangers. See you soon. Bye bye now.
