The Value Exchange podcast out now!
It is with great pleasure that we were able to interview Professor Atul K Shah, Research Fellow and Professor at London City University. Prof. Atul has recently published his new book which has been 30 years in the making – Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leaderships, Ethics and Culture. We enjoyed talking with Prof Atul about his research and learning, we covered authenticity, the importance of thinking differently and having courage to speak out, plus great examples of where finance is working well and a good dose of where it really does need some ethical and cultural change.
You can read our recent review of Prof Atul’s book here – https://www.iglobalnews.com/icommunity/arts-culture/a-must-read-for-anyone-interested-in-the-intersection-between-finance-society
For more information on Prof Atul K Shah visit:
Website: https://atulkshah.co.uk/
More info and to buy his book: https://atulkshah.co.uk/2022/06/30/sustainable-finance-pioneering-new-research/
Youtube video – Episode 7 – Prof Atul K Shah – Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leaderships, Ethics and Culture (click to watch)
Podcast – Episode 7 – Prof Atul K Shah – Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leaderships, Ethics and Culture (click to listen)
Transcript – scroll to see text below
TRANSCRIPT – Episode 7 – Prof Atul Shah – Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leadership, Ethics and Culture.
00:00:01:16 – 00:00:09:19
Annabelle Lambert
Hello and welcome to the next edition of the Value Exchange. I’m here with my regular co-host, Rob. Hello Rob.
00:00:10:05 – 00:00:11:27
Rob Pye
Hello. You want me to say something?
00:00:11:27 – 00:00:54:09
Annabelle Lambert
I’m not ready. No. I’m have one. I feel we’ve over. We’ve done the introductions. Yes. That’s all right. Today, we are joined wonderfully by Professor Atul Shah, who is a research fellow, a professor at London City University. Interestingly, we met prof. Atul as he acted as a referee for one of our young leaders during our Young leaders programme. And we chatted and we’ve kept in touch ever since, which is really exciting and he has recently released a book 30 Years in the Making.
00:00:54:09 – 00:01:24:27
Annabelle Lambert
He’s just told us before we started and called Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leadership, Ethics and Culture. And this is a field that is really very interesting to us. An area which we feel is not going to be quite fit for purpose at the moment for moving the world forward with more social value. So I’m going to ask you first, Atul, to introduce yourself, if you wouldn’t mind just a bit about your stories, how you got to where you are.
00:01:24:27 – 00:01:28:06
Annabelle Lambert
And then Rob is going to dive in with the many questions.
00:01:28:17 – 00:02:07:03
Atul Shah
Yeah, hi. Thank you so much for having me on this show and thank you for your enthusiasm for my work. My name is Atul K Shah. I was born in Kenya, in East Africa, and have been in the UK since 1980. So 25, nearly 25 years or sorry 45 years and I’m really excited about this latest book, research monograph I’ve written for Routledge called Inclusive and Sustainable Finance, Leadership, Ethics and Culture.
00:02:07:24 – 00:02:59:07
Atul Shah
I just come back from a month long book tour of India and, you know, essentially my aim is after having spent, you know, over 30 years compiling the research which led to this book and experiencing being a teacher, being an accountant, being a media spokesperson, having all that experience and bringing the theory and the experience together, and also the experience of what I would say, cultural neutrality, that’s the word accountants or finance people use when they talk about their equations or when they when they talk about accounting or finance as if there is something called cultural neutrality.
00:02:59:09 – 00:03:40:12
Atul Shah
So I kind of have experience being neutralized culturally over the 30 year period. And out of that has come out this book, which actually completely shifts the paradigm of accounting and finance by making culture absolutely central to it. And also by saying that culture is not mono, but culture is something very plural, very diverse, and therefore there is not one accounting or one finance theory, but there are many accounting and many finance theories and really good.
00:03:40:27 – 00:03:58:06
Atul Shah
Rob and Annabelle really good practices of accounting and finance, which are sustainable, which are holistic, which are caring and compassionate, are actually hiding in plain sight because of the way we have theorized about accounting and finance. Thank you.
00:03:58:17 – 00:03:59:05
Annabelle Lambert
Thank you.
00:03:59:06 – 00:04:27:08
Rob Pye
Yeah. Now we could talk forever. You know, there’s so much in the book. Buy the book. Read the book. Spend time with the book. It’s an important book because, number one, it’s a reader, you know, you wouldn’t expect with so many years of research andAtul’s credentials for it to be so accessible. But it is completely accessible and it’s an important book.
00:04:27:09 – 00:04:49:17
Rob Pye
I think the headline I wanted to start with was that there’s this expression “Holding Truth to Power”, which you talk a lot about in the book. And one of the things is that this is so important that often we don’t talk about it a lot. You know, what could it be like? What should it be like?
00:04:50:01 – 00:05:28:03
Rob Pye
And it’s in many places quite shocking to read so eloquently, such a damning indictment of finance and accounting. Annabelle and I met 24 years ago in EY one of these big accounting companies. Annabelle has since worked for PwC. One of the reasons that we left the environment was not because it wasn’t a wonderful organization and a wonderful culture to work within, but that actually we didn’t solve any problems when it came to people and planet.
00:05:28:14 – 00:05:55:00
Rob Pye
So our quest, if you like, in the last 24 years has been how not do we just hold truth to power, but how do we engage in innovating? You talk a lot about action research, trying, learning, experimenting to find out what works. But I want to start where in some ways where you started with the book, this Holding Truth to Power, and how did you become brave enough to write the book?
00:05:55:09 – 00:06:02:12
Rob Pye
Because a bit of it was about how you develop the bravery, the courage, I think, is the word you use. How did that come about?
00:06:02:21 – 00:06:43:20
Atul Shah
Yeah, that’s. Thank you so much. I think in a way, business education is very much about being a friend of power and taking advantage of power and making profit out of power and influence, you know, And therefore, it’s a lot of it is broad business. I’ve even found people who do academics who do critical research of business when they come out into public forums, they keep quiet or they say something very different from what they’ve written about it.
00:06:44:00 – 00:07:12:10
Atul Shah
It just happened last week, you know, a world expert in an area. You know, when he was at the seminar, he was saying something very different from what he’s written about because obviously he was corrupted right. And I think I think this is where I actually go draw back to my upbringing and my tradition and culture. The Jain culture, which is one of the oldest living cultures on the planet.
00:07:12:24 – 00:07:43:00
Atul Shah
And in that culture, kindness towards all living beings is quite central. And therefore, I assume actually, that when you’re brought up in that way with that kind of innocence and authenticity within yourself, it’s almost spontaneous that when you see something wrong, you don’t even calculate what will result. When you open your mouth, you just do it right.
00:07:43:16 – 00:08:18:02
Atul Shah
And as a result, and Rob, you rightly said I have suffered a lot by speaking truth to power. I think anybody who does that does suffer a lot. But instead of diminishing my courage, actually over time, it has enhanced it because you also meet, Annabelle, you also meet people along the way like yourselves who actually support and encourage you, you know, and it gives you a sense of personal inner peace as well, that your you’re actually authentic.
00:08:18:25 – 00:08:43:02
Atul Shah
I was just listening to Radio four. There’s a series called Forethought, and they’ve been doing it for many years, but they’ve closed it down now. This was the last episode and the producer came on the last episode and she said that each person who came on that series was very authentic. And I was fortunate that I actually got a slot on that series.
00:08:43:15 – 00:08:52:23
Atul Shah
So this idea of being authentic and then, yeah, speaking the truth becomes easy and I can give you examples of that. But yeah, thank you.
00:08:53:28 – 00:09:19:05
Rob Pye
Yeah. If somebody is sitting out on the ether watching this thinking that’s okay for Professor Atul, you know, he’s an expert, he’s got 30 years to build that courage. But it’s difficult being me. I am an ACCA qualified, you know, member of the audit committee. Yada yada. I’ve read his book. I wish I was more like that.
00:09:19:05 – 00:09:32:09
Rob Pye
But you know, it’s do you have any help you know, words of advice that to help somebody accelerate may be the rite of passage and not have to do the 30 years of graft to get there. Well you know.
00:09:32:18 – 00:10:04:18
Atul Shah
Yeah. I wouldn’t recommend it as a recipe but I mean, take the example of Greta Thunberg, right? She started doing that at a much younger age and much more publicly, actually. I guess she started in the local school, but later on became a public figure and has been very bold about it. So in some sense, the earlier you start, the easier it kind of gets because it becomes part of your habit.
00:10:04:18 – 00:10:36:18
Atul Shah
The other side is that the only flipside is your personal finances and you know, personal lifestyle and expenditure. So if you are able, if you live within your means and if those me you know, if your lifestyle is simple rather than extravagant, then the chances are it becomes easier to take that risk and to make those those challenges.
00:10:36:18 – 00:11:07:19
Atul Shah
You know, Rob the other experience I have had in terms of speaking truth to power in this country is that it makes my colour very visible, even more visible. So I use the word doubled black that not only am I black on the outside, but my theory and my science is black, and that is it increases the risk that one faces.
00:11:07:19 – 00:11:34:05
Atul Shah
And again, you know, I can like women from ethnic minorities would also be, you know,have a kind of gender issue as well on top of all of this. Right. So, unfortunately, this is the reality now, the great opportunity we have at the present is that the entire human species is under existential threat. Right. I turned that into an opportunity.
00:11:34:05 – 00:12:02:01
Atul Shah
I’m saying to scholars who kind of keep on and, you know, their old theories or their anthropocentric views, you know, I’m speaking up and they are having to listen because at one level, they don’t know anything outside the Anthropocene, especially social scientists. Social scientists are very steeped in the Anthropocene without even realizing that that’s what they’re doing. But at the same time. Yeah
00:12:02:11 – 00:12:36:04
Rob Pye
So I just want to give listeners just a flavor of, a tiny paragraph from, your book and how punchy paragraph after paragraph is backed with evidence, not just assertions without evidence, but so Atul says “Finance, instead of being a source of equality and sustainable growth has become a cause of the environment, devastation, social chaos and economic inequality.
00:12:36:19 – 00:13:14:12
Rob Pye
The disciplines and premier institutions of accounting and finance are undergoing a crisis of legitimacy.” Now, you know, that’s just a paragraph. And then there’s another and another and you kind of have a waves upon waves of this that causes one to reflect and pause and go, What does that really mean? And I just wonder whether in the barriers, in the discussions with people that whether people from the profession have come to you and you’re wrong.
00:13:15:02 – 00:13:41:11
Rob Pye
No, this is noy, it’s all good. Despite the fact that the truth is hiding in plain sight, despite the fact that, you know, we’re nowhere near Paris, one and a half degrees climate change. If you aggregate all of the national pledges, despite the fact that we’re $176 trillion further away from the UN Sustainability Development Goals 12 months ago, according to the UN, and that’s without Ukraine.
00:13:42:09 – 00:13:56:21
Rob Pye
That people are arguing that you’re wrong, that we’re not facing an existential crisis of social and environmental full existential magnitude. Do people tell you you’re wrong?
00:13:56:21 – 00:14:03:21
Atul Shah
Not really actually. They just stop listening. You know, those who don’t agree, they stop listening.
00:14:04:03 – 00:14:05:27
Rob Pye
Yes. Yes.
00:14:05:27 – 00:14:06:17
Atul Shah
Also.
00:14:06:25 – 00:14:34:02
Annabelle Lambert
Do you think they don’t agree or do you think that they just cannot envisage there is anything else that could be? Because that’s sort of where I am is I want people to open their minds to the world being something different than it is now. Because if we don’t do that, as you just said, we are, you know, existentially threatened and it’s going to take some change.
00:14:34:12 – 00:14:35:14
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah, real change.
00:14:35:21 – 00:14:45:17
Atul Shah
Yes, I think there are a variety of people out there. And yes, there are some who also don’t want to change who…
00:14:45:17 – 00:14:45:28
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah. Of Course.
00:14:46:03 – 00:14:55:29
Atul Shah
Want to hide under the cover or who don’t want to see different ideas or who are quite fundamentalists, you know, economists can be the most fundamental.
00:14:56:07 – 00:14:56:11
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah. Yeah yeah
00:14:56:27 – 00:15:18:18
Atul Shah
On the planet. And there are many people now beginning to say that there’s a whole student rebellion movement called Rethinking Economics, which I’m working with because they are now, they’ve now started a new chapter on rethinking accounting, which I am a part of, you know, So, so, so there are, you know, groups like that.
00:15:18:18 – 00:15:47:09
Atul Shah
And it’s important that we ally with those kinds of groups as well. And yeah, I mean, I think there are some people we’re never going to be able to persuade. So there’s no point in kind of banging the head against a brick wall. No, but one learns, One tries sometimes one gets into a debate, sometimes not. And nowadays there are many different media options available as well.
00:15:47:09 – 00:16:17:28
Atul Shah
Just to give you an example, I was at the Financial Times offices on Tuesday and I met several editors who have come to know over the years. And, you know, it was I didn’t have any specific agenda, but I wanted to have those conversations because I could see that the paper could also change to, you know, positively influence sustainable finance.
00:16:17:28 – 00:16:40:14
Atul Shah
And it is doing some things in that area, of course. But there are some more radical things that I would like it to do, and that requires patience, persuasion, relationship building. Those are kind of instinctive skills for Jain. Right. And and and it’s quite surprising. I felt as if I was with a family, you know, when I was there.
00:16:40:14 – 00:16:50:26
Atul Shah
They welcomed me very nicely. They talked to me, they listened to me. They took my books with them and even things like that. So now, you know, I feel I’ve opened a conversation.
00:16:51:09 – 00:17:09:27
Rob Pye
Yeah. And if the worst if the worst that you can expect is that people don’t listen to you, then for our viewers and people who are thinking, actually, I’m not sure that this is right, I would like more of this and less of that. If the worst that can happen to them is that people don’t listen. That’s not so bad, Right?
00:17:09:27 – 00:17:28:20
Rob Pye
That’s not that’s you know, I also I’m surprised that when you speak your mind that actually the worst that can happen is somebody won’t listen. I think that’s a really insightful point. If that’s the worse. It’s not life threatening. And if you feel then you should you know.
00:17:29:03 – 00:17:53:27
Atul Shah
I’ll give you an example from last week. It was really surprising. This in the City of London, which is which is the laboratory of modern finance, if you like. Right. They have something called the Gresham College and they have since the 16th century, they’ve had a series of public lectures called Gresham Lectures. Yeah. Then I attended and this time the topic, it was organized.
00:17:54:03 – 00:18:29:12
Atul Shah
It was well hosted by the Lord Mayor of London, the Mayor of the City of London. And the topic was financial literacy and inclusion. And there were a range of speakers and of course, that, you know, there was a lot of concern about the level of knowledge about mathematics, numeracy, skills, the fact that 15 million people only have primary level numeracy skills, 20 million people only have savings, less than £100 in their bank account, things like that.
00:18:29:12 – 00:19:02:10
Atul Shah
There was a lot of empathy and concern and I heard it and I agreed with a lot of that. But I also wanted to get my point across and the point was, and I think you will also relate to this, there is a big engine out of financial institutions which deliberately exploit financial illiteracy, which deliberately make complex financial products so that people don’t understand the underlying interest rate, the underlying fees and charges, etc., etc..
00:19:02:21 – 00:19:29:18
Atul Shah
And, you know, so I, there was no time for questions, but I kind of muscled my way in deliberately, there were 400 people at Guildhall in that lecture. So I muscled my way in and I said, you know, look, these are the realities. Credit card interest rates were 24% when interest rates were 0%. You know, savings rates are nothing and when interest rates are 4%.
00:19:29:18 – 00:19:44:10
Atul Shah
So, you know, these big banks are actively exploiting, expropriating and confusing our citizenry. Right? So what are we going to do about that? Right. I asked that question and you could have.
00:19:45:16 – 00:19:46:11
Rob Pye
Heard a pin drop
00:19:46:29 – 00:19:54:19
Atul Shah
Heard a pin Drop. Right. But guess what happened afterwards? The organizers came to me and said we would like you to give a Gresham lecture.
00:19:55:14 – 00:19:57:25
Annabelle Lambert
Okay. Excellent. Fantastic.
00:19:58:19 – 00:20:02:02
Atul Shah
And you believe that you know, that was my one aim.
00:20:02:05 – 00:20:02:18
Rob Pye
That we.
00:20:03:27 – 00:20:31:21
Atul Shah
So because the whole idea of the Gresham lectures is about speaking truth to power, their public lecture, etc., etc.. So, you know, I didn’t expect it, but I was very grateful. So sometimes it happens and then you have like conversations, you know, when you’re at an event. So but this sticking my head out, speaking up, you remember English is not my first language.
00:20:31:21 – 00:20:57:08
Atul Shah
And any foreign student who comes to this country I was just speaking to my niece. She said, you know, she’s so brilliant. She was raised in Kenya like me and comes from a very, really kind of cultured and educated family. And her first year at university, she said, was a complete cloud. You know, she found it. It was she found it so difficult, she felt quite nervous, etc..
00:20:57:13 – 00:21:23:01
Atul Shah
And there was nobody giving her a kind of welcoming hand intellectually and saying, actually, you have something new to tell us. You have something better to teach us. You know, it’s something even a little bit like that could have changed her confidence. But it didn’t happen, right? She’s going to a top university, etc., etc.. So, you know, I went through that for years and years.
00:21:23:01 – 00:21:45:28
Atul Shah
I was quiet in public fora. I felt nervous. I felt quiet. But over time and through the the research and the study and the engagement, one builds the confidence. And there was another event last week where it was an invite only event where there were a group of professors in the audience, mainly economists. And I actually used one word from the book.
00:21:45:28 – 00:21:52:09
Atul Shah
I said, Economics has been a chainsaw on nature and society, in front of them. Right.
00:21:52:29 – 00:21:53:14
Annabelle Lambert
Okay.
00:21:53:25 – 00:22:16:04
Atul Shah
You will be surprised Robert, nobody disagreed Annabelle. In fact, some of them actually came up to me and said yours was the most memorable speech. So you, you know that because the world is changing, world is being forced to change. Professors of economics have something called children. You know what?
00:22:17:21 – 00:22:18:17
Rob Pye
Yeah.
00:22:18:17 – 00:22:22:09
Atul Shah
One professor came up to me and said, Both my daughters are vegetarian. Right?
00:22:22:19 – 00:22:42:11
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah, we had the same when we were doing research around just, you know, the the thing that is ESG in business and of course, CEOs, you know, they’re all being held to account by their kids, you know, for what they’re doing, you know, so in the same way completely Right. Go Kids!
00:22:42:12 – 00:23:09:15
Rob Pye
So it’s time to just peel the onion a little bit more on what this great book is about. And arguably, it’s my argument, it’s not really about finance and accounting at all.If you could apply this logic to any profession, which is kind of stripping out the humanity, if you like, from organizations, from professions, from practicing things.
00:23:11:02 – 00:23:39:10
Rob Pye
And it in a nutshell, my words, But then I’m going to ask you to explain the book. This is a book about values, beliefs, humanity, culture, not process and procedures and mechanics of stripping out all the human stuff, we need to put our conscience into the world of work. We need to put our own values, our own special passion and purpose.
00:23:39:24 – 00:23:54:22
Rob Pye
But can you give us, you know, a short summary of what the book’s about and in your words, because I thought this was my interpretation. Everyone’s going to have a different, you know, a different summary, and you’re probably going to it’s nothing to do with that. But in your words.
00:23:55:03 – 00:24:28:22
Atul Shah
At a very simple level. You know, if we were to take a currency note out of our pocket and read it, we would discover that all it is is a promise. You know, it says, I promise to pay this person £10 and that promises from the Bank of England. Now, what we have done over the years is convert this fiction called money into a commodity, and a measure, and an objective science.
00:24:28:22 – 00:24:40:22
Atul Shah
Right? But actually, it’s a human creation. It’s a cultural construct. Birds don’t have economics. They don’t have money. They, you know, and still they survive.
00:24:40:25 – 00:24:45:25
Annabelle Lambert
Not that we know of.(laughter)
00:24:45:25 – 00:25:15:14
Atul Shah
Yeah. Not only do they just feed, but they also sing. They give us music. Right? So.. And in fact, if we look at our own history, Annabelle, it’s only in the last 200 or 300 years where money has become so central to all aspects of our lives. For a long time there was a big part of our life which was shared, which was community, where money played very little part.
00:25:16:09 – 00:25:43:01
Atul Shah
So this thing, this fiction has come to infect us like a pandemic. It has controlled, it has converted our culture, you know, from now. So nowadays everything seems to be about money, including family and relationships. Community has completely been broken by selfishness, etc., etc.. So at the very simple level, I’m just saying let’s go back to basics.
00:25:43:01 – 00:26:23:29
Atul Shah
Let’s understand the nature and limits of money and let’s also understand the huge diversity of communities, beliefs, faiths and cultures in the world and their attitudes to money. Right? And there are still even today, there are many communities which do not prioritize money, you know, and which are very simple, which have very low expectations about wealth and actually prioritize things like, you know, friendship, relationships, shared co-existence, village, village life.
00:26:24:00 – 00:26:48:09
Atul Shah
You heard the phrase Ubuntu. You know that it’s a village which makes a person, not a person that. So, there are these communities are still there. Yes, they are struggling. Many of them are on the margins of society, but they’re still there and they are still picking up the.. So these are places from where we can learn about sustainability because we cannot build a community in a crisis.
00:26:48:29 – 00:26:49:07
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah.
00:26:49:24 – 00:27:13:15
Atul Shah
We can build relationships and friendships in a crisis. So wherever in the world there are communities, those are places with whom we should work to try and, you know, to try and build a sustainable life and a sustainable society, learn from them, but also point to them some of the scientific challenges, etc..
00:27:13:15 – 00:27:22:03
Rob Pye
And just on that, you talk about an organization which is not small called Handelsbanken, which is..
00:27:22:14 – 00:27:26:27
Annabelle Lambert
I spent five years in Sweden. I lived in Sweden for five years, they were my bank.
00:27:28:04 – 00:27:41:09
Rob Pye
So can you remember a bit about their business model and their links to community and how they as a big organization prevent themselves becoming too big to fail at a community level? What’s the story there?
00:27:41:10 – 00:28:10:13
Atul Shah
Thank you. That’s a really good example of hope, if you like, in the area of sustainable finance. You know, some 50 years ago I think their CEO had this vision that there’s too much bureaucracy, it’s too centralized, too hierarchical. And he wanted to make the bank local, personal and non bureaucratic and nonhierarchical.
00:28:10:13 – 00:28:38:13
Atul Shah
So basically they gave a lot of power to branch managers, created very small branches with limited number of people and basically asked the branch manager to evaluate the loan application and to take a decision on and empowered the Branch manager to take a decision. But alongside that they also put a value on relationships, on trust, on community and localization.
00:28:38:13 – 00:28:46:09
Atul Shah
You know, So actually you know, Rob, you will be surprised. That used to be the model of Barclays. That used to be.
00:28:46:09 – 00:28:51:15
Rob Pye
Used to be the vulnerable. Absolutely. We had that relationship banker didn’t we.
00:28:51:15 – 00:29:18:17
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah. Then sadly, I’m always reminded of Captain Mannering when we think about community bank managers. But yes, absolutely. I mean, even when I was a student, which is, you know, ages ago, you know, I had I would have to go home to talk to the bank. You know, I got my little account when I was 16 locally, and to go and sort out my debt, to go and talk to the loan manager, you know, in the bank at home, I mean, it was even then, you know, so, so I mean that’s 30 years ago.
00:29:19:00 – 00:29:21:25
Atul Shah
They used to be invited to weddings, for example. You know?
00:29:21:26 – 00:29:24:01
Annabelle Lambert
Exactly. They were part of the community.
00:29:24:09 – 00:29:55:06
Atul Shah
The community, yeah. So in a sense, Handelsbanken is still doing that today. Not many people know that they’re doing it yet and they’re growing fast because the customers are coming by word of mouth at the moment. And after having experienced the pain of being a transactional bank of meeting transactional bankers and anonymous cold kind of systems which take decisions on their loan application, many customers are getting fed up and moving to Handelsbanken.
00:29:55:22 – 00:30:32:00
Atul Shah
So here is an example to me of a bank which puts culture and relationships at the heart of their operations and still succeed, profit and grow at the same time. So it’s the very antithesis of modern economics and finance, and yet it is succeeding, it’s operating, and it shows that it works and it’s growing organically. You know, one of the other main themes of the book is about organic business and organic growth and organic finance.
00:30:32:00 – 00:31:01:17
Atul Shah
So which is where you don’t suddenly try to get a big loan and expand your operations all over the world. But you grow within scale, within your limits, within your controls and within your managerial capabilities. And also this idea that the owner managed business is the ideal form of business because especially when it comes to sustainability, because family businesses often are created to be passed on to future generations.
00:31:01:24 – 00:31:31:14
Atul Shah
So they care about the reputation, they care about the relationship, they care about the customers, the suppliers, and they want to pass this on to the next generation. Now, the Jains happen to be a highly successful business community and finance community all over the world, and one this is one of the main reasons because they have they to them, trust is important, relationships are important, honor is important, reputation is important.
00:31:31:25 – 00:31:58:22
Atul Shah
And likeHandelsbanken and they grow within their scale and their limits and they are not greedy to make quick money fast. So here we have you know, I gave you a few examples of stories which are hiding in plain sight. I basically unpicked those stories, have shared them through the book. But I’m just saying this is only, you know, the tip of the iceberg.
00:31:58:22 – 00:32:14:07
Atul Shah
There are many many such stories out there, small and large, all over the world, and yet they are not given the voice, the expression, because of the way we teach business and the way we theorize about business and economics.
00:32:15:00 – 00:32:42:01
Rob Pye
Well, I think in a sound bite of half an hour, we’ve just done over half an hour. That’s an ideal place to sort of draw a line, because I think, you know, certainly I want to talk more. I want to learn more. I want to, you know, take this conversation further forward. But for now, I think it would be….. any final thoughts, words Annabelle that you wanted to say or Atul in terms of wrapping it up.
00:32:42:01 – 00:32:55:09
Rob Pye
But it’s been, for me, an honor. And I think this will be an important digital asset that we will all treasure and that will be really important for future generations to kind of to take forward any final words.
00:32:55:15 – 00:33:24:00
Atul Shah
So the other word that is important that I bring out in the book is leadership, finance leadership. Right now there are thousands of books on leadership, but so few on what good finance leadership looks like. And the reason is very simple. We cannot talk about good finance leadership without talking about ethics, about conscience, about morality, about morality and about values.
00:33:24:00 – 00:33:56:25
Atul Shah
You know, this is The Value Exchange and values are central to good finance leadership. And we need to bring them to the centre. And, you know, I close with a story. One of the top investment bankers in India is Vallabh Bhanshali, who I interviewed for this book. And he’s top not just because he’s successful and rich, but also because he has been a very trusted advisor and a very long term kind of thinker for a long time.
00:33:57:14 – 00:34:13:22
Atul Shah
And, you know, I went to his boardroom when I was in Mumbai, and there’s a very large painting in the boardroom. Right. And in this painting. And he commissioned this painting. In this painting there is Buddha, there’s Mahavira, there’s Gandhi, and there is Warren Buffett.
00:34:14:12 – 00:34:18:16
Annabelle Lambert
Nice.
00:34:19:04 – 00:34:48:25
Atul Shah
And actually, you know, he has put all of these kind of icons in his boardroom, right? So he’s completely not shy about his values. He’s, you know, willing to share them and to show them as well. He doesn’t want to hide them. But also the values are quite internationalist, You know, that, you know, you can learn from any culture, any race, any, you know, But good, good, good principles are critical to financial success.
00:34:48:25 – 00:35:14:12
Atul Shah
And he espouses that. And, you know, I’ve seen many of the projects that he’s done, including some of the philanthropy that I’ve done, which is a very large scale and very anonymous. And it just shows that they understand not only do they theorize about the nature and limits of money, they understand that, you know, money is there to serve the community.
00:35:14:12 – 00:35:26:18
Atul Shah
And, you know, if you earn a lot of money, that’s also that’s your good fortune. It’s not just because of your effort and your abilities. You know, it’s your poonia We say so
Rob Pye
wonderful. Annabelle?
00:35:27:09 – 00:35:51:01
Annabelle Lambert
Yeah. Know, I’m just I’m just drawn to the importance of sort of getting the stories out there. I, you know, in the the world, if you go and seek out information, is very negative. It’s all, you know, we’re all collapsing in this war. This just and I feel I want to uplift the world, to inspire them to do things differently.
00:35:51:01 – 00:36:17:21
Annabelle Lambert
And I feel that you need to have more stories. There’s a lot of people on a similar parallel mission. You know, like we with you, you know, we’re all I feel, pushing in the same direction. But but, you know, we need to seek more and more stories of where it’s working really well and get them share them more, because then people will become inspired and understand that they can see something that can work for them, because without that, they just don’t know what to do.
00:36:17:21 – 00:36:25:24
Annabelle Lambert
You know, I don’t mean that disparagingly. I’m just like, it’s like, Well, why? Why would they, you know? So yeah, I’m, I’m inspired and it’s been fantastic thank you.
00:36:25:27 – 00:36:26:10
Atul Shah
Well, that’s.
00:36:26:17 – 00:36:26:27
Rob Pye
Exactly.
00:36:26:28 – 00:36:34:11
Atul Shah
What you’re doing with this podcast. You’re sharing these stories and more people will will come to hear them. So thank you for that.
00:36:34:24 – 00:36:42:09
Rob Pye
Well, from our special guest today, Professor Atul Shah, from me Rob Pye, and from Annabelle Lambert, Until next time.
